WCAG and How It Affects Your Company

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Robert O’Haver: [00:01:23] Welcome back to another episode of search talk live. My name is Robert O’Haver however sorry we took a couple of weeks off I had the rocket launch last week but by the way that was amazing to watch close up and seen those rockets come back down and land that was just amazing. Those of you tuning in for the first time search talk lab is a digital marketing podcast. We talk about everything to do with digital marketing can be social media. Allessio content marking we try to cover it all. My cohost also with me is Matt Weber of ROAR! Internet Marketing.

Matt Weber: [00:01:56] Hey Robert how are you doing.

Robert O’Haver: [00:01:57] Good man. Glad to be back on the show.

Matt Weber: [00:02:00] Yeah but I gotta believe and I didn’t get a chance to go but I got to be watching that rocket launch was spectacular.

Robert O’Haver: [00:02:06] It was incredible I posted it on my Facebook page YouTube channel so people could watch it.

Matt Weber: [00:02:12] You know it was exciting to see all the people that came out to watch that launch and I know you’ve been in central Florida here for a while too and it takes you back to the days of the space shuttle when people stopped what they were doing and drove out to the closest place they could be able to watch a launch there.

Robert O’Haver: [00:02:27] It was amazing.

[00:02:28] And if I can Robert before we jump into the show I want to say a special hello to the folks out in eastern Florida State College in Melbourne late last week. I was invited to talk out there about search marketing and search engine optimization with the SPDC out there eastern Florida State College had a great time phenomenal group of people and really enjoyed being with them and I told them about the shows. We’ve got a bunch of new listeners for this episode. I want to make sure I say hi. All right great. Yeah. You know speaking about things taking off. There’s something going on in the Web site development community that’s starting to skyrocket itself. And we’re to talk about something in today’s show that if you haven’t had a chance to learn about yet it could impact your company not only quickly but unfortunately severely. So it’s gonna be four letters W.C.A.G. That if you’re not familiar with you’re going be familiar with. By the end of the show we’ve got three great experts to help us understand WCAG. and how it impacts your company. And that’s Ryan Brown. Ramsey Spencer and Kaleb Stunkard from an awesome organization called lighthouse works. So Kaleb I think you’re leading the charge over there right.

Kaleb Stunkard: [00:03:37] Absolutely. Thank you Matt.

Matt Weber: [00:03:38] Kaleb it was great to talk to you. And I wonder if you would mind getting us started because I think folks got to get some really good background here to understand the rest of your talk today by understanding what lighthouse works does. And I think some of these other pieces will fit in. Can you give us a little bit of understanding about what lighthouse works does.

Kaleb Stunkard: [00:03:56] Sure. Lighthouse Works is a 5 0 1 c 3 non-profit that was started about six years ago and our mission is empowerment through employment. And so we operate business lines that primarily employ individuals who are blind and visually impaired.

Matt Weber: [00:04:11] Great awesome organization and you and I have had the chance to spend some time together and I’m so impressed at the letters WCAG. that just the other day I was working on a presentation and if you go to Google Trends and put in WCAG you see a dramatic rise in the searches related to WCAG which stands for Web site content accessibility guidelines. Why is this all of the sudden becoming such an incredibly hot topic?

Kaleb Stunkard: [00:04:40] Well I think a lot of it just has to do with people recognizing that you want to be able to bring the same experience to to every area of the population including folks who have disabilities and the WCAG guidelines are really there to ensure that when you are working in the digital space whether that’s a Web site or documents that you’re providing the same experience on that platform to somebody who’s using assistive technology so folks that have a disability whether it’s you know what we’ll talk in this case for visual impairments if you have low vision you’ll use technology like a screen magnifier where just blows up the screen or you might invert colors so that you can see the screen better and if you have no vision you’ll use the technology it’s called a screen reader that will read things on the screen to you.

Kaleb Stunkard: [00:05:34] But the guidelines basically establish the development standards that developers should be taking when they’re building a Web site to make sure that it interacts correctly and appropriately with these assistive technology devices and so recently you have seen individuals who are trying to get to a particular Web site or access a service. And if it’s not compatible in many cases it falls under the ADA stipulation and so there is unfortunately some some litigation happening surrounding that.

Matt Weber: [00:06:07] So we’ve got two issues for the folks listening to the show to be thinking about as it relates to their Web site. One is just the general marketing principle making sure that the content that you produce is available to everybody. But the second issue is there is becoming a legal issue regarding this now is a business required today to make their website WCAG compliant.

Kaleb Stunkard: [00:06:31] So it depends on a couple factors. One there is Section 508 0 8 compliance and that basically is a federal mandate. So if you receive any amount of federal funding or support at all then you are required to to have a section 508 away compliant Web site. The name Section 508 way is different from WCAG. But the standards are actually close to identical the section The new section 508 standards are really based off of WCAG. So that affects anybody again that receives any type of federal funding in terms of outside of that scope who does WCAG compliant to that that is actually hotly debated right now. But to give you an example a lot of it depends on so if you have a say a physical space or a grocery store and then you offer a Web site and it extends some of the service say it’s the pharmacy and you extend that online to your Web site because you’re extending a service that you also offered on a physical location that falls under ADA compliance and it must be accessible and meet usage guidelines and so that is that. Now what they’re what they’re doing is looking at carrying that stipulation over to any Web site in space or not at that point right now right now depends on are you offering something that is extending a service that you offer on your physical space but it is trending toward compliance. No matter what.

Matt Weber: [00:07:57] So our are our virtual world if you will. Web site is now crossing the physical world where the ADA has said any point of public access has to be accessible to people with disabilities. Now that same standard within the ADA law is being applied to websites. Correct?

Kaleb Stunkard: [00:08:15] Correct.

Matt Weber: [00:08:17] And what are some of the things that make a Web site not accessible to people with disabilities?

Kaleb Stunkard: [00:08:25] Well that’s a great question. So a good example would be any type of image that you put on a Web site in the HTML you should be putting alternative text or alt text that basically is a clear and concise description of what is on that image. So

[00:08:43] that’s one example and that’s a that’s a common one and so if you’re on if you’re using a screen reader and there’s no alt text there it will tell you that it’s a graphic but not what the graphic is of. So that’s a that’s a really easy one that is easy to understand it’s not accessible. Another one is if you have any type of a form field on your site say a first name or last name. Those form fields should actually in the fields you creating them should should be labeled as to what they are. So a lot of times developers will just put you know text visually in front of a field that says you know first name but a screen reader is going to read that text and it is going to read a field and say that it’s a blank edit field and so now the screen where the user has to try to understand which fields are corresponding to what type of text label in there’s no visual reference for somebody has no vision. So instead the field that’s on that Web page directly should be labeled so that another area where if you had that going on you would you would not have an accessible Web site.

Matt Weber: [00:09:47] And in the beginning of your discussion you talked a little bit about colors know web designers by their nature. They want access to all the colors and they want to use a giant palette. How does that affect WCAG compliance.

Kaleb Stunkard: [00:10:01] So there are actually color contrast specifications outlined in the WCAG guideline and you have to have a certain amount of contrast if you’ve got a background color and you’ve got you know tax and Ramsey. Ramsey can speak to this on the specifics but basically you have to have a certain amount of contrast to be able to be to qualify to be accessible. You wanna talk more on that. Sure.

Ramzy Spencer: [00:10:26] Yeah the standard reads that you must have a contrast ratio of4.50 or greater on your colors.

Ramzy Spencer: [00:10:34] So there are some tools as automated testing as well as some Web sites out there that you can up those colors. It will give you the difference in that contrast ratio of that number to make sure that we are developing color palettes that all of your colors will contrast properly.

Matt Weber: [00:10:51] And we’ve talked a little bit about these guidelines and we have really introduced to the audience would have these guidelines come from is this a government regulation.

Ramzy Spencer: [00:11:01] So the government regulation is the 508 standards and the 508 standards. The revised version of them now directly referenced the WCAG standards WCAG 2.0 standards are an international standard. So over in Europe and other other countries around the world have adopted that as their accessibility standard here in America. We have the government says 508 which is in this set a part of the ADA compliance that now directly references the WCAG standards. So hopefully I’ve made that clear enough to where in America 508 says you must abide by the WCAG standards to be compliant.

Matt Weber: [00:11:49] And 508o it specifically relates to people who are getting federal funding or who are providing a service on behalf of the federal government correct.

Matt Weber: [00:11:58] Then separate from that we’ve got the WCAG. which the law five references a standard but this standard in WCAG. where did those guidelines who developed those standards.

Ramzy Spencer: [00:12:11] So that’s an international group that developed those standards and within the WCAG 2.0 there’s actually three levels of that standards single a double and triple a. We primarily focus on double AA. That is you’re considered compliant to meet accessibility on a web page so that anyone that’s using screener technology as well as free Magnificat Magnificat technology will receive that same user experience as someone who’s accessing it without that technology.

Matt Weber: [00:12:44] In general just give us a ballpark idea of the number of websites that you all personally experience.

Matt Weber: [00:12:51] How many of them are WCAG complying without trying. What’s your general experience.

Ramzy Spencer: [00:12:58] I can say we have not came across a web site that wasn’t already trying to be a WCAG that was compliant.

Matt Weber: [00:13:07] If that makes sense so I would say zero to kind of answer your question to the average person listen to the show who’s trying to figure out today is their site compliant compliant not compliant. You’re saying chances are overwhelmingly it is not complying. Correct. And for the person listening to the show. When is this going to touch them or in what way would this touch them so they’re not compliant. And when would they feel the pressure or when would they feel that some kind of pain from being not compliant what’s the situation that’s happening that they can relate to.

Kaleb Stunkard: [00:13:41] Well I can give you an example now we have one of our employees Calvin introduce yourself self Calvin. I don’t know.

Kaleb Stunkard: [00:13:49] And Calvin is a screen reader user and you know we have a lot of employees here around lunchtime. Go on and go to order pizza as an example. And Calvin you know has gone to a particular Web site in Bonn to order a pizza and if it’s not accessible you know he’s got it he’s got to move on.

Kaleb Stunkard: [00:14:08] So my first answer to the question would be are you may not know it but inadvertently if you’re a retail site you’re going to miss out on a segment of the population that is going to try to use that site and is not able to to navigate it to place an order an item to cart that kind of thing and you’re going to lose out on that business. And then on the extreme end is that you could have an individual that that could that that could contact you obviously you may be notified that way through like a support mechanism on your Web site. And then if they go even further than that it could be it could be litigation is how you find out.

Matt Weber: [00:14:42] Yeah it’s a civil lawsuit if I’m not mistaken. Right. It is. Yeah. And in just the same way then if your favourite restaurant didn’t offer handicap accessible your remedy for that would be a civil lawsuit. The same thing is now happening on the web.

Kaleb Stunkard: [00:14:58] It absolutely is and if you look at if you look at the amount of these lawsuits by state Florida Florida New York there are several states that seem to have a pretty high number recently of these lawsuits taking place.

Matt Weber: [00:15:17] What would be your general sense of how many people are using. I don’t know that this is a number available agri but what’s your general sense of what percent of the population uses screen software.

Kaleb Stunkard: [00:15:30] yeah that’s tough to tough to gauge. I’m trying to think it’s probably trying to extrapolate out from the numbers that that that we serve and think as a total of the population.

Kaleb Stunkard: [00:15:47] So if you gave just in the United States because that’s the that’s the other thing too is it’s actually United States has fewer folks that are buying it originally appeared in states the US some other countries.

Kaleb Stunkard: [00:15:57] Are there other countries out there where for various reasons that it’s much more widespread.

Kaleb Stunkard: [00:16:03] But you know out of the 300 million people there’s not a really great estimate. Oddly enough people are buying vision impaired because it’s no census it’s not going to pick it up. And there are some aggregate data that they’re trying to put together. But I would imagine it’s you know maybe in the in the single digit percentage points but I’d have to go back on a more accurate number.

Matt Weber: [00:16:28] But it’s not a number that the average business should dismiss it. It has an impact on revenue and it also has a potential legal risk absolutely you know we talked to Robert you’ll find this really interesting we talk that of the websites that are closest to being compatible in general. The Web sites that are really well optimized for organic search tend to be the closest because in essence the Google bot is a highly sophisticated version of a screen reader software. Would you agree.

Kaleb Stunkard: [00:17:05] Absolutely. And if you take that same concept in other areas like you know PDF if you have a PDF that has taxand scanned it is an image. Not only is it not accessible you miss a lot of the features like having it be searchable you have a searchable PDF. So just like with a Web site if you if you have accessibility taking care of it’s really considered a best practice in the software development. You do get a lot of other benefits outside of just the accessibility component.

Matt Weber: [00:17:32] Now I’ve I’ve gone online and you have to and there’s probably a good half a dozen Web sites out there that will do a free compliance check the Web site. Are those safe are those reliable. Do they catch everything.

Kaleb Stunkard: [00:17:48] So they will indicate to you if you have deficiencies but they can’t really give an accurate pass. I would say that they could you could use it accurately know if you failed. But you could give false positives in the sense of I’ll go back to the example of if you’ve got your alt text label if you have a image of a room full of people and one person is celebrating something and the alt text might just say picture of people by the definition of compliance that is not an accurate description of that image.

Kaleb Stunkard: [00:18:23] But a automated test will look and just see perhaps there was a description. So therefore there’s all text and give you a pass when you really would not pass in the sense of was that an accurate concise description of that image. So. So there is nuances there where automated tools can be helpful but they aren’t able to paint that full picture.

Matt Weber: [00:18:46] In our business is now finding that maybe there are vendors or maybe there’s a sub for a contractor that there they want their Web site to be WCAG compliant because somebody else is requesting it either a contractor or potentially maybe a vendor.

Matt Weber: [00:19:02] So how does one show that their Web site has passed.

Kaleb Stunkard: [00:19:08] Well the best thing to do is you know we can we drive people a lot of times to go to the WCAG compliance check dot com and we have an ability to audit a Web site and we use analysts who are blind or visually impaired and we do the automated testing that you spoke up earlier.

Kaleb Stunkard: [00:19:32] We have two automated tests that we run and then we run a manual testing with the technology that we think the big difference for us is we also do a source code evaluation where we’ll go in and look at the problem areas and look at the code and what we’re not going to tell you just why what is not accessible but we’ll tell you why and why we provide a remediation suggestions. And then at that point or if we go through and we don’t find anything we’ll actually issue a site seal that folks can display on their Web site that let everybody know the day they are complaining.

Kaleb Stunkard: [00:20:07] It’s interactive so if somebody clicks on that site seal it will take you to a dedicated page that we build for that company that talks about the process that we went through when it was certified. And so that’s it that’s a great way to reduce the chance to of something like a civil lawsuit because you’re you’re going through and it validates that you have got to formalize testing by folks who actually use the technology and it’s certified up to the WCAG 2.0 double standard.

Matt Weber: [00:20:38] So in the not too distant future we might look at this WCAG certification logo or certificate or in the same way that we look at an SSL key today.

Kaleb Stunkard: [00:20:48] Absolutely. That’s a that’s a very good analogy.

Matt Weber: [00:20:52] Now once you get a WCAG. compliance certification or logo is it forever. How does what happens when you change though the website.

Kaleb Stunkard: [00:21:04] That’s a great question.

Kaleb Stunkard: [00:21:05] So if you make any major changes to the Web site you should absolutely go for a follow up on it because there’s there’s obviously sort of two types of Web site changes years content changes and and you see compliance applies to content as well. So if you are adding a new post or linking to a document. Those pieces should also be evaluated for accessible and then obviously if you’re making any changes to that to the page itself to menus to lay so those kind of things folks should go for another audit. So what we do is we when we issue that site seal it is basically it. It says that as of this date this website is valid and then we recommend folks at least annually if you’ve made a major change certainly reach out and get a follow up on it but if not then just annually go for another another check up just to maintain that and your side is Hans-Gert has that accessible status.

Matt Weber: [00:22:08] Yeah cause we got a lot of people listen to the show that are absolutely updating their site regularly. And so let’s talk about a typical wordpress site. If someone’s adding content to a blog site. Do they have to go for a recertification every time they outpost.

Kaleb Stunkard: [00:22:24] So they’re just adding a regular post in there and that’s it depends too on some of the post content vicious attacks based post they’re probably pretty safe. But if they you know add it at any sort of like images or any sort of dynamic elements then then yeah they should go for a recertification but it really if it’s just basic in it we really don’t want to keep these these accessible guidelines a secret either and so we can pretty much educate folks and that’s sort of our purpose too is to say here’s the things that you can do in simple best practices to take care of where you don’t have to worry about it. But if you’re doing any sort of more complex site changes like I said that would involve maybe edit fields would involve images. Any type of menus or color differences too if you’re doing anything like that you’ll certainly want to check and make sure that your site is still accessible if you’re just doing some basic post. And it’s just taxation. You’re probably okay.

Matt Weber: [00:23:29] Let’s talk a little bit about e-commerce sites. What special considerations do e-commerce sites have for WCAG compliance.

Kaleb Stunkard: [00:23:37] Well when you’re dealing with e-commerce sites who you know we generally when when we ordered a Web site we do it based off of who we call a unique page types and so that’s the first thing is if somebody is thinking we’ve got we’ve got an e-commerce site and got a ton of items on there.

Kaleb Stunkard: [00:23:54] How much would that cost. You know to go through an audit it’s not really we don’t.

[00:23:58] We don’t base it off of just the sheer number of pages it’s based off the page types. And then the other thing we do is any any sites like e-commerce sites you want to look at what are important workflows and so you want to make sure on on the e-commerce site can you accomplish something like adding an item to the car doing what we call an advance purchase and removing an item from the car. So we check all those all of our core functionality and so anybody who’s running an e-commerce site you’ll want to make sure that all of your core functionality that a consumer should be able to accomplish can do could be done with a screen reader so that’s very important. It’s you. It’s you know if you’ve got some kind of say banner ads or something on the side that’s not nearly as important as being able to achieve core functionality on an e-commerce site.

Robert O’Haver: [00:24:51] I have a question for the listeners.

Robert O’Haver: [00:24:53] Can you tell me who this benefits like. Is it just the blind or is it for deaf people. I mean they use readers as well. No it sounds like a stupid question but it’s not.

Kaleb Stunkard: [00:25:06] It’s a great question. So does WCAG compliance cover all disabilities. Most of those are very targeted toward screen readers. However there are a lot of the standards that cover other disabilities such as if you have a video on your website. You have to have closed caption. That’s that’s a standard of what’s WCAG that are for folks with no hearing at all. So when we do this test you get for every type of disability not just specifically someone who is fine visually there but a lot of that access technology in speech you can operate your computer fully off of speech the same is you could also screen reader the way that they function when interacting with the HTML and the code of the page is the same. So those guidelines are the same from that standpoint. And when they’re in place and working for one access technology they offer all of them. That’s why those are the standards for the HTML to make it accessible.

Robert O’Haver: [00:26:11] Awesome. Do you have a demo or something we can hear exactly how it works.

Ramzy Spencer: [00:26:16] Absolutely. We’ll have a Calvin who’s here on a on his laptop and he has a screen We running it.

Ramzy Spencer: [00:26:22] So go ahead Calvin hit it click quick.

[00:26:31] Have been a contract hit all of us Takaful shows but the press shows.

Kaleb Stunkard: [00:26:42] So if you notice they’re just in that that that speech rate first of all is is adjustable so when you have somebody that first starts out using a screen where that may slow it down they may speed it up but just just in there what you heard it mentioned buttons and those buttons it had labels. If this site that Calvin was navigating was not accessible it could just say Button button one you know in it. So you may not know that that’s a cancer but that’s an OK button. Same thing with links links may not be able to know where the page is going and so the stuff that it is reading it is reading the HTML on the page. And as long as that HTML is crafted correctly then the experience for some users is very positive.

Matt Weber: [00:27:23] Do you have two samples that you can share with us contrast. Let’s read our site that is absolutely not WCAG compliant. And then let’s read a couple seconds of a site that is do you have two samples that you can share with us.

Kaleb Stunkard: [00:27:36] Sure we’re going to go ahead and it’s easy to find a non accessible version so we’ll bring up one real quick. And have you guys take a listen on it.

Matt Weber: [00:27:46] And to protect the names of the guilty we won’t announce the name of the website in key areas.

Kaleb Stunkard: [00:27:56] And what we’re going to do here is we’re just going to we’re going to pull up just a website to order pizza.

Kaleb Stunkard: [00:28:04] We’re going to it’s it’s we’re going to pretend that Calvin’s hungry and he’s going to and we don’t have to pretend there is this compliant or the no complaint it will be a non non-compliant.

Ramzy Spencer: [00:28:18] So there’s this one is going to be it I’ll just to describe the site very visual and there’s not a lot of labeling. So you’re you’re going to hear a lot of just graphics. I’ll go ahead and let Calvin navigate. But it’s not going to make a lot of sense but that’s kind of the idea. Imagine that you’re sitting in the seat. And this is all that you’re hearing on on on a web page. Go ahead.

Kaleb Stunkard: [00:28:44] However there was this logo logo linked graphic. I asked.

Robert O’Haver: [00:28:54] For our listeners can you explain.

Matt Weber: [00:28:56] Like are they mousing at this time or are they moving their mouse around that’s what’s giving the verbal cues. How does that work.

Calvin: [00:29:05] I I’m I’m only using the keyboard. Can you store the mouse. Because I’m fully blind I’m fully blind person.

Calvin: [00:29:14] Can to keystrokes. Oh I use all keystrokes for graphic if I’m looking for if I know the website I can use the G4 graphic if I’m looking for a button. I used to be for button if I’m going to find something for example if I do are control f.

Calvin: [00:29:40] You border search is going to find it.

Calvin: [00:29:48] This is about typing the text order to do this in link or anything that says order or anything that says order on that website you’ll find it. Not least not. We might be there but he’s not that correctly. I can try to luck and link list.

Kaleb Stunkard: [00:30:07] And I can’t say there’s a big banner on this website and it says order here right in the middle of it and he’s just search for order because he was order pizza online and he has no way to access that link because it’s just not set up properly.

Calvin: [00:30:23] Wow. Seems things are going on fighting not just ideas. Go somewhere else.

Robert O’Haver: [00:30:30] Now that that’s huge. I was wondering how you feel.

Kaleb Stunkard: [00:30:35] Everything was so if someone wants to kind of experience how is a screen reader sort of digest content on a Web page the easiest way for someone without nodular computer is if you go to a Web page and just start hitting the tab button the tab order is kind of the order that someone who uses a screen reader will will take in that information so they’ll use tabbing to start hearing once the elements on the page and why that’s important to or tablature asset so that you can start to construct a kind of a roadmap of the website you’re trying to find something on or figure out how to navigate. As you insert tabbing to the tab order to look for maybe order here or locations or contact us for phone numbers and if you’re tab order or not set up properly that that could be a challenge for navigation and you can also use a screen reader.

Ramzy Spencer: [00:31:29] You know you can navigate by headings and says what we talk about some of the benefits if you structure a web page properly with the proper use of headings and a shemale development you’ll get a page that the end result is you’re following best practices in that page accessible because you know sometimes when you using the stream you’re gonna try to navigate a page using whether it’s headings or you might search for a list of links and you might look for a log and link or an order link. You know those are pretty common ways that somebody who’s pulling up. And when we talk about these keystrokes the carbon was mentioning the controlled G and the control B. Those are built in keystrokes to access technology software that he’s using and then it’s relying on the graphics to be labeled in the buttons to be labeled. So when he gets control B it’ll take him to the first button on the page and as long as that button is labeled correctly then you know we were in good shape three years ago.

Kaleb Stunkard: [00:32:28] Have you guys arm because a lot of people just don’t realize you know you aren’t making another example of something I’ve seen.

Kaleb Stunkard: [00:32:37] An example of if someone who’s a developer is looking to get a certain visual appearance of content on the page will actually use an html heading to create that look that they’re going for. Now Halbig is trying to navigate settings of a page to find out if that heading is something you want to read further about. Underneath that adding that could become very confusing is something like Calvin.

Matt Weber: [00:33:02] Let’s hear one it’s done really well. Hold on for we get there again take a break right quick. Okay.

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Robert O’Haver: [00:34:27] So we had Calvin go to the WCAG. compliance check dot com and he just pulled up a list of links and so now he’s going to just arrow through the links and you can listen to the stream here.

Calvin: [00:34:41] For me to be able to ball all the links on a Web site I just do insert of F7 which is the insert key could be anything on the back end user zero a insert since I just pulled it up and is going to go from top to bottom right.

Calvin: [00:34:59] The first one was last efforts at Probably just arrowing downdown quite like it and see some links in this website.

Robert O’Haver: [00:35:11] Do you normally use it at that speed. Why do I go faster than that. Oh yeah. When somebody when I’m in a call center. Yes.

Matt Weber: [00:35:20] Can you give us some sense how can we hear how fast you use it and then show us how the maybe the speed that the average person might use it.

Kaleb Stunkard: [00:35:28] Oh is that what you’re listening to is probably the average JAWS user.

Ramzy Spencer: [00:35:33] And we’ll go to Kabul to increase the speed here and it will show you the more advanced speed and so Calvin works in our contact centers.

Ramzy Spencer: [00:35:42] So just just think about two in Calvin’s experience. Know He’s takes a call from from a customer call center. He’s listening to the customer and one ear is listening to the scream meter in the other ear. And then he’s talking to the customer. Carry on a conversation. Providing great customer service. And then at the same time he’s typing in information into the computer that he’s receiving from the customer so simultaneously two inputs to outputs all going on at one time.

Robert O’Haver: [00:36:11] That’s talent.

Kaleb Stunkard: [00:36:13] So there’s JAWS professional as the name of the streaming here and there’s open source versions as well like NBA and so if anybody out there wants to download a trial of Josh just to just to give it a whirl or Invidia they can they can do that.

Ramzy Spencer: [00:36:33] So now we’re going to bump the rate up here a little bit what’s Nimo just to put political as possible possible political. OK.

Kaleb Stunkard: [00:36:55] So you know there’s a fast speech right go ahead had come through in just navigate the same web page if you want to focus on cash left Arafat today you heard a different voice you can choose to the type of voice on the street here as well.

Robert O’Haver: [00:37:18] You actually understand what it’s saying?. You know it’s amazing.

Kaleb Stunkard: [00:37:26] You know a lot of people ask how long it takes to really get proficient with Jolles and I say it’s like riding a bike you know some people pick it up quicker than others but in time and training the agents will get up in the high 80s to 90s and above in some instances. And it really also depends on how familiar with the workflow. So it’s something you do every day like check your e-mail. You’re going to know you know what to expect when you’re navigating to your inbox for example. However if you want a new web page you might slow it down because you’re unfamiliar with the content that you might be coming across.

Matt Weber: [00:38:02] Yeah I downloaded an open source version so I could be prepared for the show and I got it. You guys are making it look easy. It is very very difficult.

Kaleb Stunkard: [00:38:12] Calvin would you say training wise it took you to become familiar with using a screen reader.

Calvin: [00:38:19] Oh about a year and a that’s using everyday yeah.

Matt Weber: [00:38:27] Now what’s the difference between mobile and desktop on this topic. How does the person listen to the show prepare their Web site on the mobile and the desktop is it two different things and do screen readers also read mobile versions of websites.

Kaleb Stunkard: [00:38:43] Yeah absolutely so the in terms of the standards the accessibility standards there is no difference.

Kaleb Stunkard: [00:38:50] If you’re on a mobile device say for example you’re using an iPhone you. You will use voiceover which so you will not use the jaws screen reader or MVA you would use voiceover That’s built into the iPhone as part of the IOS operating system by the desk. The great thing that Ramsis was talking about earlier. As long as you follow these accessibility standards the 80 software assistive technology software metaphors VOICE-OVER or if it’s Joz or if it’s Invidia they will all be at once it’s accessible by you following those guidelines it will work on all those platforms regardless whether it’s mobile or not.

Matt Weber: [00:39:32] As a native the iPhone has some native functionality to do some of the things that this creamier software does.

[00:39:39] Correct. Yes and so does you know like on a WindowsP.C. he’s using third party screen reader. But Microsoft has Microsoft narrator also has windows magnifier. So there are native tools on that operating system as well. And they’re and they’re actually very good especially in recent years. They’ve they’ve gotten much better. And so we have folks who use some of the native tools but that’s I guess a two is the great thing is you don’t have to work on separate requirements for each of these pieces of software. There is one accessibility standard that if you follow it will work with all of those various tools out there.

Matt Weber: [00:40:18] From a development standpoint the the person developing the Web website does or does not have to do anything different in the response of design in order to make sure that the tools work well.

Kaleb Stunkard: [00:40:31] So there are there are some standards that are spelled out in the WCAG guidelines that that do affect responsive design about you know whether or not if your page is magnified up to 200 percent what happens is horizontal scrolling required. So there are standards that I would say relate to responsive design and so those are you know I won’t get into the technical details but there are standards that that relate to that as well that you do have to follow.

Matt Weber: [00:41:00] Okay so scrolling guideline might be a little bit different for desktop than it would be for mobile.

Kaleb Stunkard: [00:41:06] Well it’s more of just how does the page respond to you know the sizes. How does it respond to being magnified. How does it adjust. Other than that there’s there’s nothing. So for example say you’re you’re you know you have a Web site that is responsive and changes it’s lay out there when it’s viewed on a mobile device. There’s no specific way that it has to be laid out. That’s still up to the creativity of the designer. But it still must follow you know have the correct labels have the correct functionality in terms of what what gets read by a screen reader. So those things have to be followed. But you can still in terms of how you do what content you choose to display and how you choose to organize it visually that’s still up to the designer and it’s important no to because we don’t want people to think that you have to have some very archaic or mostly text based Web site to have an accessible Web site.

Kaleb Stunkard: [00:42:07] If you follow the accessibility standards and you’re using modern technology modern development technology and all five as an example you can have a very rich robust looking Web site. You don’t need a dedicated version for somebody you know for somebody who is using assistive technology. The standard nouse use one site and it can look just as beautiful visually and it can have that same experience for somebody using a screen reader. If you’re following the best practices and so that’s sort of the beauty of this is we tell people a really good accessible Web site. It will not somebody who a site will not know the difference when they visit that site.

Kaleb Stunkard: [00:42:51] It will be completely indistinguishable and a good example for folks if you want to look you can look if you go and visit WCAG. compliance check dot com you’ll see large graphics there. There’s there’s plenty of text and logos and there’s a form field on there. That site is 100 percent accessible and you’ll be able to tell it’s got a flow chart on there were different different graphics that are interactive when you mouseover em all of that functionality. You can still preserve and have an accessible Web site if done if done correctly.

Matt Weber: [00:43:28] Have you found that any particular platform WordPress Joomla Drupal works is more or less difficult to gain WCAG complained.

Kaleb Stunkard: [00:43:40] Not really. I think there are on some of the platforms there are themes for example that are more accessible out of the box and so what happens is there is less work to do but if you’re using for example a particular theme say it’s an end Drupal and there’s this one that you like but there’s some accessibility issues you may have to go into do some customization which which can affect obviously compatibility if you’re doing updates and so it you those are those are factors you have to take into account the more customization you have to do. But we’ve never found out any of like the very common CMW platforms like the 3 you mentioned we’ve never found one that you couldn’t be adjusted where somebody could choose the theme they want and still make it accessible just some will take more customization than others so you’re in. If you’re starting from scratch you’re probably better off to start with one that’s closer to being accessible just less work for the developer but if you’ve got a preexisting website in general you’ll be able to make the modifications you need to to reach accessibility.

Matt Weber: [00:44:48] Are people marketing WCAG compliant wordpress themes.

Kaleb Stunkard: [00:44:52] If Yeah there are if you search for them they are out there. I’m an author for the other platforms as well.

Matt Weber: [00:44:59] That makes it a little bit easier doesn’t it. Yeah. So what should the average business kind of expected as a result of today’s show. They said you know what we should we should check this out. Can you give them some sense of the timeline of the process and what they would go through to fulfill a goal of being WCAG compliant with their website.

Kaleb Stunkard: [00:45:21] Absolutely. So if you if you if you visited that site and you expressed some interest generally and there will collect some basic information and the Web site you Aurelle and then generally will reach back out and if you have for example log in areas of the site that required some sort of temporary credentials to get access to. Well we’ll talk through that and then generally it’s pretty quick for us to turn around sort of a scope document of this is you know when we’ve analyzed your site this is how many unique pages and workflows need to be evaluated and the costs associated with that and then generally it obviously depends on the size the site but generally after all it takes about a week could take up to two weeks if it’s a much larger site but only about a week. And then you the customer gets this final report that it’s got some high level information on the front so that just sort of shows you on a graph how close you are so you can just see at a quick glance and then it gets into the technical details after that it can be used by a development team or you reach out and say I’m interested in having somebody perform these fixes remediation for me to become compliant. Then obviously we can refer them to an approved mediation vendor who’s familiar with it somebody like like like raw who’s very familiar with accessibility standards can can help them with that work and then we can do a follow up audit after that work is done and hopefully we issue a sightseer at that point that they can put on their site and proudly display.

Robert O’Haver: [00:46:59] Well I think it’s that time Matt ..

Matt Weber: [00:47:01] Believe it or leave it and Kaleb in team we’re gonna give you three statements that we found on the Internet. So you know to anybody ask you to tell our audience whether they should believe it or whether they should leave it. Are you guys ready. We’re ready. Okay here comes number 1. By the end of 2018 the major browsers will incorporate functionality in themselves that will negate WCAG compliance as an issue for businesses.

Kaleb Stunkard: [00:47:33] Leave it not not but not by 2018.

Matt Weber: [00:47:37] I hope so but not by 2018 but you think that’s something that’s on the radar of Firefox or Chrome or Edge.

Kaleb Stunkard: [00:47:46] Well I think that I think what’s going to happen is I think these platforms are what we were talking about on the on the CMS side I think they’re going to start to incorporate accessibility more and more starting to see it trend in that direction where these things are starting to get incorporated. And so just by virtue of using this CMS you’re going to wind up with an accessible site. I don’t know how long that process is going to take. We obviously hope it’s quicker. It’s gonna take a while for that to take place but I think that’s a big shift that we’re going to see. And then as long as that’s done from the browser side the browser simply is just going to interpret the email like it’s supposed to and render it. And the CMS sides really where the accessibility cure if you want to call it that is going to come from. And like I said we’re starting to see a trend in that direction.

Robert O’Haver: [00:48:41] All right. Question number two WCAG compliance only relates to people with visually visual disabilities.

Kaleb Stunkard: [00:48:50] Leave it. He’s covered that.

Kaleb Stunkard: [00:48:53] And yet we discover that it not true.

Matt Weber: [00:48:57] Number three if a business has a fully compliant brick and mortar location that sells the same exact products as their website they don’t need to worry about it. WCAG compliance of the website.

Kaleb Stunkard: [00:49:12] Leave it at it’s not true not true at all.

Matt Weber: [00:49:15] They can’t take the stance that says well if you came to our store you’d have everything you need to purchase it for visually disabled people they can’t take that stance.

Kaleb Stunkard: [00:49:25] It cannot take that stance of a good reference for that is the case with Winn-Dixie. It cover just that instance where somebody who had a visual impairment was trying to access their website with the pharmacy yes they could. They could have walked in but because they’re extending that service online it falls under ADA and they need to provide this the same equivalent experience.

Matt Weber: [00:49:48] Fascinating absolutely fascinating.

Robert O’Haver: [00:49:50] No no no. Correct me if I’m wrong but this could potentially. I mean obviously as a website owner you want to make everything accessible for everybody. But doesn’t this open the door for several lawsuits. I mean oh a law firm. This could be low hanging fruit for them.

Kaleb Stunkard: [00:50:11] It absolutely is and you know unfortunately that’s what we’ve seen recently is is an uptick in these in these lawsuits and it’s unfortunate because we don’t think that developers do it maliciously it’s really not that it’s just an it’s just a knowledge gap is really what we think it is and so that’s why we developed the site Celia’s to try to you know help folks.

Kaleb Stunkard: [00:50:37] Businesses and Web site owners to become compliant and avoid you know this. This trend of lawsuits.

Robert O’Haver: [00:50:46] Sure.

Robert O’Haver: [00:50:48] Now if someone wants to get information about your company where can they go.

Kaleb Stunkard: [00:50:53] Well they can go to http://lighthouseworks.org/ . They rely on social media is what we are we are on on Facebook Twitter and are our parent. Is lighthouse Central Florida and that’s http://lighthouseworks.org/ and so any of the net revenue that we make from these business lines we funnel to lighthouse Central Florida and they are basically we offer rehabilitation services for all age ranges and the tri county area Seminole Osceola and Orange County to folks that are living with visual impairments everything from orientation mobility to independent living skills. And so that’s really the purpose lighthouse works. We employ individuals and then of the of the net revenue we make we funnel back into Lighthouse Central Florida thought to continue to provide those services at no cost to the community.

Robert O’Haver: [00:51:56] Matt do you want anything.

Matt Weber: [00:51:57] Yeah. Do we have just a couple seconds for Kaleb to squeeze in his search Talk Live tattoo. How’s the clock looking. Robert we’re good. Kaleb what we’re going to ask you to close the show is to give us your search Talk Live tattoo which is your best most succinct piece of advice regarding WCAG compliance that you would give to our audience. And of course it’s got to be tattoo because Robert gets all of these as tattoos.

Kaleb Stunkard: [00:52:27] All right let’s see in.

Kaleb Stunkard: [00:52:35] Calvin Do you have one that they can think of is a tad too short and concise.

Kaleb Stunkard: [00:52:42] I would say hang on here and let me think I would say get. I don’t want to I want somebody who’s going to pick something like accessibility is is is a good thing or something like that or as a win win because I truly believe that’s the case. I don’t want it to be looked at as a burden.

Kaleb Stunkard: [00:53:01] I think it’s the right thing to do and it’s it benefits a great segment of the population and it has these other benefits. So overall I would say accessibility is a win win. That’s my tattoo.

Matt Weber: [00:53:15] I like it. I like it. I make it my own version that is accessibility. It’s the right thing to do. It’s because it’s a really nice sentiment and it’s a great statement.

Robert O’Haver: [00:53:25] Excellent. I want to thank you guys for being on the show lots of great information. You’ve opened my eyes for sure because I’m dumb to this stuff. I mean obviously I do the AWALT images and all that other stuff but you really widened my understanding.

Matt Weber: [00:53:41] Yeah it’s been a great show and super helpful for the people listening are probably getting introduced to a topic that has a big potential to tap on the shoulder in the next few months.

Kaleb Stunkard: [00:53:51] Yes we’re here. Thank you guys very much for having us on. We greatly appreciate it.

Robert O’Haver: [00:53:56] All right. Thanks a lot guys. We’ll see you next week on Search Talk Live. Thanks for your support.

Matt Weber: [00:54:01] If you want anything by everyone. Great great show. Hope you enjoyed it.

[00:54:15] Searchtalk live is sponsored by the Robert Palmer family of companies. If you get questions or search talk like or you’re interested in being a guest or sponsor of the show e-mail Robert Cirque’s Gottleib dot com search stock Leive dot com.